2/11/22 - We say goodbye, in the final episode of Call Your Girlfriend. In typical fashion, we're going out talking about how friends have been helping us get through the pandemic, the never-ending furor over Joe Rogan, and what podcasts we're loving. If you're looking to subscribe to something new, check out Do You Know Mordechai, Sweet Bobby, and Like a Virgin. Plus, what we're going to do next, and some of your voicemails.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
PODCAST RECS
TRANSCRIPT: FAREWELL
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I’m Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Gina: And I'm Gina Delvac, the producer hanging in the background today.
Ann: We're together in person.
Aminatou: We really are we're together in person in the same room. We had lunch together. We have been shooting the shit together.
Ann: We've been trying to start doing this for four hours.
Aminatou: What a day? What a day?
[theme song]
Aminatou: I know it's a really nice day. I like being in the same room with the two of you.
Ann: The sharing physical space with people I love is maybe the only thing I like about the pandemic.
Aminatou: This is only the second time ever in the pandemic for us, that we've all been together.
Ann: I also am just like, because the pandemic has lasted since before the common era. I, I forgot.
Aminatou: What's the pandemic? Yeah.
Ann: Um, could you have predicted that this podcast would end before the pandemic?
Aminatou: Wow, that is… [laughter]
Ann: I'm sorry, but that I'm sorry, but that is the timeline we're on.
Aminatou: Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Honestly, probably if we’re honest. [laughter]
Ann: Honestly, it's a wonder we didn't break in pandemic season one.
Aminatou: I mean, no, it's just like, not for everything to be about the pandemic, but like, remember those super early days where like, you know, there was the first day we were like, okay, I'm gonna stock my fridge and then in three weeks, this will blow over.
Ann: I'm still eating those beans. I remember.
Aminatou: I know my god Rancho Gordo bean club, be still my heart. Um, one person should not be a solo member of the bean club is all I have to say about the bean club.
Ann: I couldn't get into the bean club. When, when the chips were down, there were no points of entry to the bean club.
Aminatou: That’s right, some of us joined the bean club earlier. I bought my beans from a restaurant I was trying to support, that's how old those beans are. [laughter]
Aminatou: Like okay so it's like first, you know, I was like, okay, this thing's gonna blow her. And like, mm. I thought it would be like three weeks, four weeks tops. And then we'd know more. And then there's clearly, you know, like day two or three you're hunkered down, governor that should not be named are like having tech, like conferences. And there's like a distinct moment. I remember being like, oh shit. Like, this is like, it's real. It's just like very real. And it's not gonna be three weeks. And, and these were the days where everyone was like, yeah, it takes like 22 years to make a vaccine [laughter] And then like whatever. And then when we got the vaccine in COVID was still here is when I was like, yeah, we're in love with this for a while. So all of this to say that, um, I'm not saying I predicted anything. I'm just saying that, like, I remember the day where like my heart dropped and I was like, oh, nobody knows anything at all. And I decided that that was a timeline. I was on that. Like, nobody knows anything at all time. So nothing will surprise me anymore.
Ann: Like, we are spinning off into like the void of space. Like there's no anchor anymore.
Aminatou: Like yes, yes. Done. It's like, we're gonna finish the like Greek alphabet. There was that really funny tweet where someone was like, they're gonna start naming the variance after the ladies in mambo number five that I was like, What are we gonna get after Erica? You know, like, what are we gonna do? And at this point, it's all LOL for me. I'm just like, okay, this is absurd, but I don't, you know, it's like humans, you can only process things that you have a frame of reference for. Like, you take risks based on situations that, you know.
Ann: Context.
Aminatou: Yeah. And now I'm like, I have no context. I have no, like nobody knows anything. So even when I hear like people just being like in the scientists say whatever, and I was like, no one has lived through a global once in a lifetime pandemic. Let me spin out in my own corner, please. And that's exactly what I'm doing.
Ann: Yeah. Spinning out, spinning out in my own corner. And then also figuring out the ways that everyone I care to socialize with is spinning is like really the dominant mood of the moment.
Aminatou: Can I ask you a question?
Ann: Obviously.
Aminatou: We're there, like to times in early COVID seasons, like so, seasons one and two and three, like, and maybe even early vaccine, not this like omicron phase, that's very serious. And we're all taking very seriously. Did you like do something that you knew was risky and you were like, it. I'm just gonna do it and really enjoy it. Like, was there like a personal rebellion moment?
Ann: I think I've had a few of those. I mean, most of them though, like look pretty innocuous, you know, it's like the choice to hug a friend in the pre vaccination days or like the decision to be indoors with someone when one or both of us was at like a really deep, low, and we just needed to like, you know, be in the same shared space.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: Like literally do the thing that was most dangerous. Like breathe the same air. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, there have been a couple of points like that and maybe at least one per season.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: Um, but the things that maybe for me feel like a stretch of the boundaries are just like how other people have to live because their jobs require a certain amount of exposure. So I think I, at this point in time, I'm not wasting a lot of regret or energy about those little moments that I need to get through. What about you?
Aminatou: I follow the rules every day [laughter] so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Ann: Oh my god, it's a trap. It was a trap.
Aminatou: No, just kidding. No, I, early, early, early in COVID in May, actually, there was a moment where I was alone and I really had this like deep, deep, deep moment of like depression and just like lost it. My friend Daria, I will say her name because Daria loves when you say her name. Hi, Daria.
Ann: Hi Daria
Aminatou: Daria came over to my apartment and there was this moment where we were staring at each other through the door. And this is like early May. Like you were not allowed to touch another human being in May. And I was crying and she didn't even hesitate and just grabbed me. And we like slumped on the floor of my kitchen. And I remember just being like, okay, now we both have COVID, it's fine. You know, like there was this moment, but like, I really that's like a day for me that I will always remember because I needed that human touch. Like I just like, I would've lost it if that hadn't happened. But also I like knew that it was, it was very dangerous and, but I, but I also, yeah, there was also something about like, just having a friend be like, we didn't even talk about it. Like she didn't hesitate. So I didn't hesitate, you know? Like you were like, okay, we are taking a risk together that I, I remember that. And I was like, I don't care. Like I was like, if this, like, obviously I was like, if it kills Daria I will never forgive myself. But I was like, if this is what kills me, I will die so happy. Like I didn't care. And then there was another moment, man, in the summer, I mean, New York in the summer was magic. Um, sorry to people who did not have magical summers. We had a magical summer, but there was a day where it was like, people were definitely vaccinated. Like we had all had two doses of vaccines, but I did not do, um, indoor dining or, um, like I wasn't going to bars and like everything was out to, or especially because it was the summer and you know, and it's also, it's like not everyone was vaccinated. And there were like definitely populations that were refusing to get vaccinated. But there was a day where I was with another friend and we had gone to a bar that we thought we were going to be able to sit outside at. And when we showed up, it was like, oh no, this bar is indoor only. It's very, it's like your office Ann is like bigger than the bar I'm talking about. And there was a small office, it's a small office, but just like to tell you, and it's also like in a neighborhood in New York where I was like, nobody here is vaccinated. And, uh, yeah. And also like the outdoor space was closed. And so we both looked at each other and we were like, should dance. Like the DJ was so fun. There was this like dance party. And I remember just being like, this is not smart. Like I knew it. I was like, this is not smart, but I had not danced in like over a year. I really wanted to. And both my friend and I were like, we are households of one people. So we were taking a risk that is the, like for each of us. And we also had like an event that we were supposed to attend together. Like I think two and a half weeks later. And so we're like, you know what? We'll just quarantine. And we'll see what happens. And I remember that night just like dancing among like no one was wearing a mask. No, not a window was cracked, open the door was not open that just like dancing to like afrobeats and reggaeton and just like having a blast. And I remember going home that night and, uh, I had plans to go on a walk with a friend the next day and being like, so sorry, I can't go on a walk with you. I literally did a reckless thing. And now I have to isolate for two weeks until—
Ann: I felt extreme joy. And now I have to isolate for two weeks. [laughter]
Aminatou: Yeah. I felt extreme joy or whatever. And then we didn't. And then my friend and I ended up never getting COVID like we kept testing and we didn't get it. And I was like, wow, like that was a small miracle. Like that's literally what they tell you not to do. But I would do that night, like a hundred times over for the extreme amount of like just happiness and joy brought me. And I was like, you know what? Like, we're in a plague, but we're gonna dance. We're gonna hug. We're going to kiss our friends. Like we are like, we're going to live life. You don't get to do it every day. But every single time I did it, I was like, I have no regrets, which like, kind of brings me to a pandemic thing. That's been driving me really crazy with this latest wave. Um, because so many people have gotten COVID not me LOL.
Ann: Quite literally record breaking numbers, like record.
Aminatou: There was a day where like every single person I was supposed to see that day had COVID like, it was so funny. My all my holiday plans got screwed. Everyone had COVID but an attitude that has been like really making me really upset is this like notion of like people having to be sorry that they're sick, you know, like the shame of just like, how, where did you get COVID? Like, we're so focused on like where and how someone got COVID that we are not understanding that that is just like a kind of like shamey, like attitude that we're putting on people. I'm like, uh, it's a literal airborne plague. And so when I like, I've just like noticed a lot of like groups of people being like, oh yeah. So this person gave it to everyone and blah, blah. And I was like, you know, the way that the science works actually it's possible that someone that you don't even know gave it to all of you because we're not like doing all the things, but I've just been so struck by that, like this feeling of just personal shame and defeat people are supposed to feel for having it. I was like, no, like we are really, we're two years into this and we're still learning the wrong lessons from it. I was like, no, like we are living in a plague. People will get COVID do not make them feel like some type of way for getting it. Like let's get them resources so that like they expose the least people possible so that they're able to stay at home. So that we're, it's just, that has made me so mad the focus on like where and how, as opposed to like the, Hey, how can we help you get over this? And how do we help you not spread it within your group of people?
Ann: Yeah. I, that really resonates. And also, you know, shame is sort of a symptom of, of this desire for control when we really have very little, like, you know, the idea is like we should all be able to control exactly who and how we see and exactly like what our exposure is. And if you get COVID it's because you didn't control it right. Or like you, you know, you were reckless and like, you know, that those two things feel hand in hand to me. And I think it's a really hard, it's a hard line to walk because we obviously wanna encourage people to do very 101 things like wear masks or like opt for the outdoors when they can, or like, you know, all of that messaging around a risk budget, which like I am far from the top public health official you should be listening to. But, um, there does seem to be a relationship between doing the most. We can tipping over into like a, maybe a false sense of control, which then results in this shame. If you are positive that like, you know, I appreciate you saying that because there's gotta be some interruption of that narrative at some point.
Aminatou: Yeah. I'm just like, if someone has all the vaccines that, you know, Dr. Flopshi says, you're supposed to have, um—
Ann: Dr. Flopshi. Flopshi?
Aminatou: I'm the, I'm the number one Fauci hater in the land. I'm just like, why are you people listening to this man? That's another episode that will never be recorded. But anyway, Dr. Flopshi, um, everything he said will happen. It did not happen. And also he told us not to wear masks when we were supposed to. Um, but anyway.
Ann: You do not forget.
Aminatou: Never forget. I'm like one job is to tell everybody to wear masks. Um, no, but you know, like, there's this thing for me, I was like, okay, like, feel your feelings about people who are unvaccinated 100%. I was like, feel your feelings about them. But I'm talking like in the population of us who are like, we are triple vaxxed, we, um, you know, like we're washing our hands. We are wearing masks. We are like, we're following the minimum of the guidelines that we're supposed to do. It is at a point, I mean like two years in where it's like, okay, like, are you going to let COVID control your life every day and be like a fake like armchair epidemiologist? Or are you just going to be a human being that says, I have enough information to decide what kinds of risks I am willing to take? What kinds of risks I'm willing for my family to take? And what kinds of, you know, like what of attitude I will have in my community? And to me, like the, I feel that like, if we are doing all of those things and we're being honest about them, it is so incongruous with this attitude of just punishing people who get COVID. I was like, the vaccine is doing exactly what we said it would do. It's like, we didn't say that if you get vaccine, you're never gonna get sick. We said that if you got vaccinated, you, I could not go to the hospital and die. And that has been true. It's been, so it's like people who are like, there are all these breakthrough infections and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, yes, like that, like that is normal. But the like, people are okay. People who have gotten vaccinated are like doing okay, but it's just been, I just feel a real sense of disappointment in like the fact that this has been two years and there's just like lessons that we're not getting. Like my other fear is that, you know, like if the world goes back to some semblance of normal one day, no one, we will not take into account all the information that we learned here about how messed up our childcare system is how messed up our healthcare system is.
Ann: Definitely not
Aminatou: Yeah. It's like, hi, you know, maybe if you have a cold, it's okay to stay home and work from home, as opposed to, you know, having a job that makes you feel like an utter failure. If you don't show up like every single day of the week. And so that is just, yeah. I'm just like humans never learning the right things.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Never learning the right things. But yeah, it's been two years. I, um, I'm, I'm kind of jealous of everyone who got omicron, cuz I'm like, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to be one of the viral girls. This is, it's just like college. When everyone got HPV, except for me, you know, I just of me, I just wanna be one of the cool girls. I'm trolling you. I'm trolling you and you are like, no, I'm losing it.
Ann: No, I, I actually. What you're watching normally, if we're on the phone, I wish everyone could see your face. You cannot see me in real time trying to decide whether to respond jokingly because I know you're trolling me or respond for the benefit of the audience that does not know you're trolling. And make you say that you're trolling me. That was like the, like the small person in my head pulling gears.
Aminatou: I love just how like, squirmy, you got, this is, I can't believe we recorded so much of this podcast over the phone when I could have looked at your face, just like losing it
Ann: While you said you wish you had gotten human papillomavirus
Aminatou: All the cool girls got human papillomavirus.
Ann: I know, but most of us didn't find out until later when we had an abnormal prep. OK like I wasn't even a real time flex.
Gina: You went through all the worst anyway that HPV could have done to you. It's like you could have at least had the cool points.
Ann: Damn Gina.
Aminatou: I know. I'm like, I just wanna be one of the viral girls. Give me, give it to me. No, you know the thing, it's just that, um, this is the attitude about COVID. It's not that obviously, like, I don't wish COVID on anyone, but the people who are on the other side of it, I'm like, you have 90 days of no testing. It's like, you have a cape out here. You can do whatever. You can go to a concert and do whatever you want.
Ann: I don't really know that those with HPV enjoyed similar sexual benefits is all I wanna say.
Aminatou: Ann, as we have noted, the HPV was a joke. [laughter]
Ann: Sorry, I'm just plumbing the metaphor.
Aminatou: Um, wow. This is like those, like, can you even tell an HPV joke anymore?
Ann: Has, have things gotten so politically correct, has cancel culture run so up that we can't joke about the common sexually transmitted infection that many, many, many people have.
Aminatou: Yeah. Yeah. But again, listen, but the thing about STIs and STDs, right? It's like the conversations that you have about that, or like, you know, they're, in some ways like COVID.
Ann: COVID combos.
Aminatou: And I was like, yes, of course, a society that is not comfortable, like talking about STIs and STDs is not a society that is gonna win at COVID. Speaking of, let's take a break.
[music]
Aminatou: Oh, do you wanna know something that's really sad for me right now?
Ann: I guess.
Aminatou: Every single one of my playlists on Spotify is deeply impacted by Neil Young removing his music from Spotify.
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: It's true. Also, um, a friend has a playlist that she shared with a bunch of us called, um, I've never met a cover of Harvest Moon I didn't like. [laughter] It’s every single cover of hHarvest Moon ever made. And it truly is like the best, uh, ASMR I'm sad playlist.
Ann: Can I tell you with a Neil Young related theory, which is that Unknown Legend? Um, you know, she used to work in a diner, never saw a woman look fine, et cetera.
Aminatou: You mean the song I'm walking down the aisle too? Yes. Is the Tunde Adebimpe version.
Ann: Okay. Well, listen, I was just about to say the Tunde Adebimpe version is flawless. However, it is the original you don't know you’re beautiful.
Aminatou: Yes. Or of course, which is just like, I really—
Ann: The day that I realized that, which was in fact listening to unknown legend, it was like, I was in a thrift store and you don't know you’re beautiful was on. And I was like, oh my God, this toxic sentiment. Um, anyway, that's Neil Young.
Aminatou: It's like man songs. You know what I mean? It's like, they always sing about the same things.
Ann: It's like, it's like whale songs, man songs.
Aminatou: Yeah. It's like, even rappers have their, like, you don't know your beautiful, like sweatpants on.
Ann: Sweatpants on up your hair up. No makeup on.
Aminatou: No makeup on [laughter]
Ann: I mean, Neil Young is like such a man's songs offender on this front.
Aminatou: He really is. But like, I, I don't know. I, I don't know if you've seen the Sinead o’Connor documentary. I have not. That is it's either out or a song, an early copy, but like, there's this Sinead o’Connor documentary that I'm sure you'll watch very soon. And it was interesting, like watching it because you're like, oh yeah, like musicians used to be activists, you know? Like, she got punished. Like every, when people talk about cancel culture, I'm like, no, no people who have gotten canceled are Sinead o'Connor and The Chicks like that’s who has suffered.
Ann: Listen I was raised Catholic. I am a fan of Sinead.
Aminatou: Yeah. But so the Sinead, the Sinead documentary is iconic because it really is like, here is the context in which Sinead made those comments. And then also it like contextualizes in like present day Ireland. And you're like, oh, maybe Sinead was onto something. And we punished her for telling the truth, but also musicians, you know, like I was like, oh yeah. musicians used to like, anytime musicians through politics, it's very dicey for them. I was like The Chicks. We like, we were like, don't talk bad about the Iraq war. And then it turns out they were 100% onto something.
Ann: Yeah. None of the congressional hearings, poster, rock war recognized The Chicks.
Aminatou: So you know this Neil Young thing. I was just like surprised by, because I was like, oh, like, here's actually a good way of using your privilege also. I'm like, do you know how, like you have to be for Neil Young to like come down from heaven and be like to leave his barn where he makes music all the time to be like, excuse me.
Ann: His like barn made of gold.
Aminatou: Yeah where he’s like, Joe Rogan. I have something to say to you. I would die. I would die. I was like, we have not heard a word from Neil Young in like 11 billion years.
Ann: And it’s blow rogan who makes him come out of the barn and drive his motorcycle over the earth.
Aminatou: Yes the host of fear factor. I was like, what? This is insane. And so, so Neil Young is like using his influence to be like Spotify, I don't wanna be on your platform. Please pull all my songs. And I was just interested by this for many reasons, because one, um, Neil Young has like sold half of his cat, a log to like an investment firm. So I was like, oh wow. The bankers are allowing this. Like, that's a, you know, like bankers don't love activism, but I guess probably the, I don't know anything about music, but I bet that part of the reason that he only sold half the catalog and not all of it was so that he still had some control over it. Um, and also they don't really make a ton of money off of Spotify anyway. Um, if you're listening to this podcast on Spotify, um, um, it's tough, But, um—
Ann: We’re not getting rich as a result.
Aminatou: Artists, especially don't get rich, but then also like Neil Young, I think like, it's like, you know, the host of fear factor has like 200 million listens and Neil Young is like six million. So it's like, okay. In, in, you know, like in the universe of Spotify fear factor, man is, you know, fear factor. I, meted man has like everything. And so, but I was still really impressed. I was like, okay, this is actually, um, you know, like you have power, you're using your power in a way that makes sense. And, but at the same time, I'm like, oh yeah, it, when I was watching the Sinead O'Connor doc, I was like, musicians, like very rarely two politics. Like, it's almost like I had forgotten, like where I was like, oh, this used to be a part of your world. And now it's like, oh, there are very few musicians who take a stance on anything.
Ann: Well, they do, but it's like a kind of toothless politics. I mean, I feel like we've talked about this before, where, um, you know, like how many musicians were among the people who were like posting act squares in summer 2020, but like are not going to do anything, um, to make sure that their label is fairly compensating, like people of color or like who are, you know what I mean? Like, like, like it is a real kind of skin in the game question.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: And this is right, like Neil Young or his, the people who bought half his catalog stand to actually materially lose some money. Um, and that makes it actually political. And rather, rather than just like showboating.
Aminatou: Yeah. And it's just like a streaming platforms. I don't know. I feel like this is my year of really doing my own internal soul searching about where I consume music, because for so long, I've just been like, eh it's so me, my playlists live here and blah, blah, blah. And this is the whole thing. And also music streaming is broken. Like nothing makes me matter then, like, so, and so is gonna have an exclusive on this platform for five minutes. And then I subscribe to that and I subscribe to this or whatever, but I was like, if I have to confess that for as much as I know that streaming is not great for artists. And I'm someone that like, I'm like, I go to shows, I buy the merch. I support my artists in like all the ways that I wanna support them. I had really this, this thing with the streaming, I was like, I really need to sit down and have my own. I need to think about it for more than five minutes and decide what I'm gonna do about this. But it is really depressing.
Ann: Yeah. I mean, it's a question. I mean, how do I put this? It's like, you're right. The Neil Young decision is a decision that like, we are all able to make in theory. Right. Um, we all participate in this platform and, um, there is no amount of like, tweeting about it, it or messaging about it that will have the same effect as saying we're all leaving because we don't like, you know, I don't know, like this…we don't, we don't like where you spend your money. We don't like where you spend our money.
Aminatou: Yeah. I just, I, I also just like, can't believe that we're like leaving podcasting to like Joe Rogan. Like I just, Ugh, I, yeah—
Ann: Who's leaving it to him?
Aminatou: I mean, I just like cannot believe.
Ann: I mean, we are leaving, but we're not leaving it to him.
Aminatou: Not to him, I guess. Like, I it's, like I know. And also, listen, I also listen. Sometimes I do listen to Joe Rogan, the Miley Cyrus episode chef's kiss. Like that was actually a great interview, but like this, like I just it's like, everything is too cliche, you know, I'm just like, really, really, really, this is what's going on and this is exactly what's going on. And it really annoys me.
Ann: We already discussed this. I don't even listen to like, you know, less objectionable men. It's like, I don't have enough time in, I might curate some like LOL moments of Joe Rogan for you because sometimes like it, like, sometimes he's so idiotic. It's like beau, like, it's just like beautiful. And you're like, these are, I was like, these are the leading commentators of like a generation. This is nuts.
Ann: I know. But how does that not feel like laughing at like Trump during the 2016 campaign?
Aminatou: Oh, no, it doesn't. It honestly, in some ways it's worse than that. I was like, Trump gets elected and like goes, you know what I mean? I was like, I cannot like, you know what I mean? I was like, it's bleak. Like I have no say and this person like be being here. Um, I don't know. But I think mostly I, the reason I listen is because sometimes, you know, it's like, sometimes I'm like, I will put on Fox news. I was like, what are these people saying?
Ann: Of course, of course.
Aminatou: What are these people saying? Like, what's going on here? The reason I listen to Joe Rogan sometimes is because I like, there are people that I'm intrigued by, you know, like the work or whatever. And also I'm like, okay, like, I actually want to hear how you do your job. And I will say that like, there is a part of his job that I'm like, uh, sure. Like saying things that come out of your mouth, you know, I'm just like men gossiping and call it a podcast. Like that's fair. It's there. And then there was this other part where I was like, wow, like you, yeah. It's like the way that capitalism works is so still nuts to me. I was like, okay, we have just decided that this man is the best that like all the men can do at like this thing.
Ann: And collectively we've decided [laughter]
Aminatou: Yeah collectively, I was like, this, this is your king? This Is nuts to me. Like I was listening to this episode with Jordan Peterson that he did with Jordan Peterson also drives me—
Ann: Oh God, I heard about this.
Aminatou: I know. But they were saying like the nuttiest things. And I was like, listen, I'm okay with people having controversial opinions. Like, it's really not that I was like, have your controversial opinion. But if the controversial opinion is like rooted in literally being an idiot,
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: It's like I'm listening to two white men. The episode was like them talking about how people like black people using the word black to call themselves makes no sense because people are not black. They're like, they're brown. They, and I was like, who is gonna tell Joe Rogan that black people are not the ones that call themselves black? [laughter] Like, this is what I mean. I was like—
Ann: This is a self own.
Aminatou: In fact, yeah. I was was like, these are not so, so yeah. I think like that's the thing. I'm not articulating it. Well, where for me, it's not, um, I am not afraid of having divergent politics from people or having hard conversations. Sure. I was like, yeah, like have these, I love a person with a tape. I was like, tell me your, you know, your like controversial take on the world. Like all of that is fine with me.
Ann: Spoken, like someone who lived in DC for many years. Right.
Aminatou: I mean spoken like someone who like to my parents' credit at our dinner table, you not have to have, um, like a, you were not applauded for following the party line. So I'm like, it's not that I'm of having hard conversations. I would just like to have them with people who know what the fuck they're talking about. And so wouldn't that be nice? I know it would be nice. So again, I just I'm—
Ann: Well, men in podcasting are not for you then. Like, you know, a slight generalization.
Aminatou: I've already, I already stand by this, some men make great podcasts. [laughter] I am
on the record saying I listen to a lot of podcasts now and men make great podcasts. Have you listened to a good podcast lately?
Ann: Great question. Mmm. Honestly the, the, the only new podcast in my rotation is Like a Virgin is Fran TIrado and Rose Dommu who are very good friends. I would say actually a really good recommendation for people who are CYG fans and love best friend energy in their podcasters, because a thing I really get from it that I honestly have not appreciated in many podcasts in my life is that energy is like the eavesdropping on their friendship. So the premise of the show is that they revisit a moment in pop culture history often it's something that one of them engaged in, but the other one did not. And then they will explain it to the other person and there's frequently a guest and they are just very, very funny. Um, so yeah, I'm really enjoying that quite a bit. And I, I think I, it makes me feel closer actually to CYG listeners who send us really lovely notes about how they love to eavesdrop on our friendship, because I'm just like, oh yeah. Like that's actually a big selling point of this show for me so Like a Virgi. What about you?
Aminatou: Um, I mean, I have like doubled down on Who Weekly and I subscribe to the Patreon. I, you don't getting like four episodes a week. Yeah. I like don't know, honestly, nobody tell Lindsay and Bobby, but I literally get too much how content do it. They produce so too much content for how little money I, we pay them on that page. I'm like, I like take all my money. Yeah. How do they do it? I have triple double down on Who Weekly and it's delightful. And I listened to two podcasts this year that I, um, I like one I very much enjoyed. And the other one I'm like who I'm still thinking about. Um, so the first one is called, uh, Do you know, Mordecai, I believe was the name just like a Mordecai podcast and you'll find it. And it is this really, really well done. Um, I believe out of Canada podcast, um, story about, like a story that is very common, like woman, true crimey, uh, you're dating a man that's like kind of homeless, kind of lying to you, kind of catfishing you. And then he is like multiple relationships, but it was the first time that I've listened to a podcast about a story like that. Like woman is like, wait, you're dating this person. You don't know them at all. And they're doing these weird things to you that I felt, um, the producers and the host really centered the women at like put the women at the center. So there was no, you know, it's not like an episode of catfish where like, excuse me, your boyfriend won't get on camera and you're still here. Um, and I really, I don't know it was done really respectfully. And I was just like, wow, like you can do true crime in a way that's not, um, doesn't say that like women are idiots. And then the other podcast that I also, like I could not stop thinking about is an, is a catfish podcast and it's called Sweet Bobby. Um, I think that it's like, and I'm still having a lot of thoughts about it. I overall it was like fascinating because it is about, um, this woman in a, um, it's like the podcast is in England and it's, um, in a Bengali community and, uh, a woman is being catfished by the, I tell you also who the catfish is immediately. So it's not a like, who did it, but you're just like why? And the scope of it is nuts.
Ann: Which I feel is the most interesting mystery at the heart of the most catfish.
Aminatou: Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Because the, because the point of this podcast, which I actually think was great was that, you know, like they tell you immediately who the catfish is. And also like, but by telling you the catfish behavior, you're, you're my is like blown away. You're like, what? And then she impersonated how many characters? And like, you know, it wasn’t just like one. Yeah, no, it was like a, it was a, yeah, it was the Marvel comic book of universe of catfish. It was insane.
Ann: Oh, I love the idea of one, a one person universe.
Aminatou: Oh yeah, no, it's a one person universe of it's mental illness love, like, you know, it's just like not doing well, but I still, and also, I, you know, I do think that the host really went, um, like did some really good work, like contextualizing it also within this like Bengali community, because the reactions very different. And, um, and I think that if you come from like an immigrant community, even if it's not Bengali, you're like, oh yeah. I feel like the shame is totally yours for having been catfished, as opposed for being the victim of one of these things. And also you realize how much, like the police doesn't know how to deal with this as a crime at all. Because at first you're like, what, like getting catfish is not a crime and they're like, mm. But if you quit your job and send all your money to someone and you're being emotionally abused and you are, you know, like your mental illness taking a toll, like what do you do with it? Um, and so I, I listened to that like recently, and I am still thinking about it and, you know, and also just being like, why are these stories so popular? Cause every, like I'm like, there it's always, the same thing is all always like, there's nothing new in the world of like this specific kind of like true crime. It's nothing new. And at the same time, I just, I was like, the human mind is insane. And there is like so much to unpack here.
Ann: And also just like the, that eternal question of like, how well do you know the people who you care about and like, how well do you know your fellow humans? Like, I feel like it is at the heart of like a thing that like most great novels are about and things.
Aminatou: I wanna say yes, right. And then, but then there is the eternal question of—
Ann: [laughter] But you don’t
Aminatou: But then there's the eternal question of MTV's catfish where like I'm willing to like really be like, you know, everyone has a secret. If there are a lot of things about Ann and Gina I don't know. I like, you know, like, like you have some like real, you know, like you have your own life going on. I am willing to entertain all of that. What is really hard for me to entertain is in the world of like modern people where they're like, okay, I'm, I'm friends with someone or I'm seeing someone and they're really mysterious. And they never, like, we Skype every day, but they never bring their face to the camera. Like, what do you think that's about? [laughter] Like, this is the formula of the MTV Catfish. And you're like, this is really hard. It's just like really hard to have sympathy for, you know, where I'm like, okay, I totally like, there's so many ways that people get scammed that I'm like, yes, this is like, yet people are mysterious and doing mysterious things and like, blah, blah, blah. But I'm just like, wow, we in the 21st century, like if you are on video with someone who will not video with you, I'm like the universal rule of catfish is that they are catfish.
Ann: If you haven't seen them in real time. Yeah.
Aminatou: Yeah. Like what do you do with that energy? So I, I don't know. I, I like, I really like don't want to be judgemental because like, obviously it's like being taken advantage of sucks. And the people who get taken advantage of should not be the ones that have to explain themselves. Um, that's how I feel about all wrongdoings, you know? And at the same time, just like, how do we, how do we as a society talk about like ways that we can all protect ourselves and be more transparent in general, because it is a kind of crime that disproportionately happens to women in a specific way, like in like, you know, it's like all kinds of people get catfish or taken advantage of. But like in this particular formula, I was like, oh, wow. Like what are the learnings? And what are the things that we can all implement? And you know—
Ann: You're a student of catfish.
Aminatou: Yeah. And you know, and my story generally is like, I'm like, listen, if you're talking to someone who tells you, they have an iPhone, but somehow their wifi doesn't work to like call you to face, verify, walk away. Um, someone tells you they're in the witness projection program and they can't come to the phone, walk away [laughter]
Ann: Somehow this whole conversation, knowing it's gonna sit on top of our feed for so long. I love that this is gonna be like, like our legacy, like, okay, like if you learn nothing else from this show, like this is pinned, you know, it's like never lost walk away if they don't show your face.
Aminatou: Well, you know what, but this or West Elm Caleb, so you decide.
Ann: I'm not interested in that.
Aminatou: Are you really not interested in West Elm Caleb? Are you like, what are you, what part are you not interested in?
Ann: No, it's more just like, I feel, um, increasingly with things like this on the internet, I, um, think of that line from the Big Lebowski. Like you're not wrong, Walter. You're just an asshole. I think about that with so many things in my life. Like, honestly it, no, that's, it plays on a loop. And like, this is one of those, like one of those instances.
Aminatou: Yeah. I still remember the last tweet I ever shared years ago when I left Twitter, that was like a retweet of this really beautiful woman who said she was like, this year, I will only, I will not participate in the discourse. I will only be beautiful. [laughter] I was like, that that's me. I was like, I don't have, I don't have, you don't have to have an opinion about everything. And we live in the opinion economy. Everyone wants to give advice. Everyone's an expert. Everyone is famous. Everyone is, and I'm like, this is not sustainable.
Ann: Okay. What's happening for mere right now is that my editor brain is so tickled that this is where we ended up in the final episode of this show. And rather than just belabor that point, I wanna say yes, exactly. And ask you, what are you gonna do now that you're going to be beautiful?
Aminatou: Honestly, just be more beautiful.
Ann: I mean how are you going to be more beautiful than you are right now?
Aminatou: Look, I am look how glowy I am.
Ann: It’s impossible.
Aminatou: It's insane.
Ann: Well, you're at like 110 already. Like, how are you going? How?
Aminatou: Honestly Ann the pandemic was really hard, but some of us got hot and that is—
Ann: Some of us got hotter.
Aminatou: Some of us got hot, some of us got hotter. I was like, stop feminism broke my brain. It told me that it was all being smart. And I was like, no, no, just be beautiful. Just be beautiful to be beautiful.
Ann: Spoken like someone who's smart.
Aminatou: Be beautiful and make a lot of money. Like I've gone back to my, I have rejected the learnings of my four mothers and I was like, I, you will be beautiful and I will be rich. Um, no, I'm trolling again. I'm in just a little bit. I, you know, honestly, just probably read for pleasure now and watch TV for pleasure. It's going to be weird. Not to have read books, to like review or interview authors like that is, it's like everything I've read the last two months. I was like, oh, there, no, like I'm just enjoying this.
Ann: I don't get to call this person and talk about it.
Aminatou: I'm just enjoying this. And so, yeah, that's fun. I'm gonna get to hang out with you and Gina. Um, what else? You know, uh, like work on some, writing some television and, but mostly read for pleasure. If I'm honest, read for pleasure. What about you?
Ann: I don't, it's interesting. Like for me, um, for me, it's hard to separate from questions of like, you know, starting a round number, fresh decade of my life and like, you know, like, I don't know.
Aminatou: Happy belated!
Ann: Why thank you. Um, I don't know. Like I think that, um, you know.
Aminatou: How is it being 20?
Ann: Uh, listen, the acne is hard to deal with you think I'm joking? Um, no, no, no. I think like, so the key words that I'm like thinking about, like, you know, I mean, luxury, think about what luxury means to me. Um, I saw—
Aminatou: She's rich, ladies and gentlemen.
Ann: No, I have to say those. She, I saw, I saw really, um, like, like luxury to me means like tipping really, really well. Like being able to like tip extravagantly or like being really hydrated all the time. Um, or like taking lots of baths. Like I really am like hon my bath practice in a real way, which like, as you know, I am a late in life bath taker. Um, I think I'm really excited to have new pleasure practices that I did not have before, like wearing earrings, as you know, I got my ears pierced for the first time for my forties.
Aminatou: It's so exciting to see.
Ann: A milestone that you underwrote.
Aminatou: Listen, you look beautiful.
Ann: Thank you. So yeah, like I'm excited to do things like take baths and wear earrings and yeah. Like read for pleasure, but also, um, just to like have space, like that's another thing that's absolutely luxurious is like, you know, this podcast, um, we obviously made money from it. Like people who are listening to this, listen to us, read ads for years and years. Like we made money, but it's not, it's not like the money was never the reason we did this. [laughter] I know it's like, I know this is a joke to the two of you in the room because we know the dollar amounts.
Aminatou: I was like, ma'am, I do not own as many shoes as I would like to own.
Ann: So clearly. Well, and so the calculus, the calculus in not doing this means that like, like the luxury of more time is something that like I, and we both have. And like that is something that I am sinking into like a bath that is so hot. I'm like, um, [deep breathing], which is how I like to take my baths as a lizard bot. And I will also say, I am still like, I'm taking extra pleasure in the work things I'm still doing. Like, I am like finding extra pleasure in my newsletter or I'm finding extra pleasure in like developing new ideas for things, knowing that CYG can't be the container forces me to be more creative about how things are going to take shape in the world. So I also wanna say that part. Do you wanna answer this question, Gina?
Gina: I don't have a great answer for this. I think, um, I, yeah, I feel more committed than ever to rest time pleasures, sorry mom, if you're listening, hedonism, um, like just kind of being, being more in my body, being more with people, like really knowing the richness of getting to be in the same space and share air and what that means. And I think like where this show came from, which was the three ill of our connection to one another and wanting to spend time to like read and chat and think through our thoughts together. So doing that in a way that's not monetized or publicized, but like find those richness of connections that already exist and have a lot of huge extrovert energy right now. Like, uh, I befriended my gynecologist. She just texted me for a coffee recommendation, like chatting with people on the street.
Aminatou: Oh My God. Current?
Gina: Yeah.
Aminatou: I have a doctor who won't be friends with me in person because she says we can't, it's not, I'm gonna send her this episode.
Gina: Oh my God. It's not a competition.
Aminatou: No, I'm just—
Gina: I just baited in Aries. My God.
Aminatou: No, I'm just saying Dr. Certi. We could have had it all.
Gina: Yeah. A hundred percent. So I think like following that, like, um, I'm really, I'm really feeling my like child self return. Not in like the cheesy inner child way, but in, in just like passionate curiosity and doing things because they're fun and exciting.
Aminatou: Yeah. Having playtime.
Gina: A space for that play. Totally, totally play times. I bought myself a drum machine, so—
Aminatou: We'll see in the future.
Gina: Yeah. So yeah, I think, um, the same values that always motivated us, like friendship, mutual aid, care and respect, pleasure, fun creativity, like being in the core of that.
Aminatou: If you ever wanna drop beats on the feed, please feel free to also.
Ann: I was like, is the outro of this episode Just beats by Gina.
Aminatou: Beats by Gina.
Ann: Yeah. Too bad. She's editing this. She can edit this out.
Aminatou: Beats by GD, DJ snack pack over here. I have two DJ names. DJ snack pack or DJ Gordon Gartrell for the deep Cosby fans. RIP but still I love it.
Ann: I love this for you.
Aminatou: DJ Yummy voice.
Ann: DJ yummy voice
Aminatou: DJ yummy voice. That's what it is.
Ann: DJ yummy with like an umlaut over the U, that's, like Hollywood billboard, DJ Yumi.
Aminatou: [laughter]
Ann: Wow. Glad we workshopped that. Yeah. Thank you guys. Um, ladies, I am really gonna miss you. I mean, I'm gonna miss this time with you.
Ann: Structured time.
Aminatou: Structured time. Yeah.
Ann: See, see you on the group chat in other non-public spaces.
Aminatou: That's right. And to all the listeners, see you on the internet.
Ann: See you on the internet for coming along for the ride with us.
[Voicemails]
Fitch: Hi, my name is Fitch. I am from Brooklyn, living in Brooklyn, New York. Um, you can use it on the show and I just listened to the Big Announcement episode and I wanted to shout out my ex bestie, but who I lovingly ended my friendship with Susanna. We also grew up, grew into our friendship, listening to this podcast and discussing episodes week over week and reading the book recommendations and read big friendship together and ended our friendship recently for mutual, the mutual need to love ourselves before the friendship. And I just wanna say thank you to Aminatou and Ann and Gina for making this beautiful container where conscious love and real talk, um, and fun snacks, good girl. So thank you. And I am so grateful that you have been here and I'm grateful for all of you that you're ending this.
Lynette: My name is Lynette. I'm calling from Jacksonville, Florida, and yes, you can use this on the show. I just wanted to tell you that I just listened to the podcast about making old friends or conversations with old friends. And I loved it because when I was six years old, my best friend was 83 years old and we stayed friends until I moved away and then she passed away. But I learned so much from having that relationship with her. Um, she was, it wasn't like a familial relationship. She was just a woman who lived in our neighborhood and I started taking the mail to her and then we just became friends and I was go and hang out with her and we'd watch Jeopardy. But she taught me so much just by being herself. And I loved this podcast simply for that reason, because I feel like so many people can benefit from just talking to, to someone who's older than them and vice versa, because I feel like, you know, I learned things that I would never have learned from anybody else in this world that I learned from her.
Molly: Hi, my name is Molly and I'm from Minneapolis, Minnesota. And this can be used on the show. As the you wrap up, I just want to shout out my work bestie Audra, who introduced me to Call Your Girlfriend. Um, we even went to a live show together. Anyway, we don't work together anymore and I really miss her and I'm gonna miss the show and thank you so much for all the great times I've had listening to it. Um, thanks, bye.
Jordan: This is CYG producer Jordan Bailey. I just wanted to give a big heartfelt goodbye and share how much the show is meant to me. Over the years, I started listening to CYG in 2015, it was one of the first podcasts I discovered and one of my favorite, favorite shows for years. And it was a big inspiration for me for my own career. I would listen to Ann and Amina and think I wanna do that too. In 2017, I saw CYG live in San Francisco and during the Q&A portion at the end, even though as an introvert, I was super nervous to stand up in this giant room full of people. I asked Ann and Amina for some advice for starting my own podcast. They gave me some tips and then the wonderful Gina Delvac invited me to find her after the show for even more info. Those conversations gave me the push. I needed to start my own podcast and eventually to work in audio professionally. Years later, Gina and I reconnected and she brought me on, on team CYG. It's felt honestly like a dream to be able to work on a show. I loved so much for so long, and I'm really grateful for everything I've gotten to do with team CYG. I got to interview some of my favorite authors, share some of my favorite work, and I even came out on this podcast. That's a pretty big deal. This podcast has always felt like home to me. And as a longtime fan, I'm sad to see it come to an end. But as a friend, I'm excited to see Ann and Amina move on to other things. I can't wait to see what's next.
[music]
Gina: You can find all of CYG our whole archive on the internet callyourgirlfriend.com or on your podcast app of choice. As far as we know, we're still on all of them. The show has been hosted by Aminatou Sow and Ann Friedman, lo many years, and executive produced by me, Gina Delvac. The show is also produced for a time by Destry Sibley and for a real long time by Jordan Bailey, our theme songs by Robin, Original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by the inimitable Kenesha Sneed, who I have to say, I think, created the most iconic podcast logo art I've seen. We had editorial support for many years from Laura Bertocci. And thank you also for editorial support to Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan. Carly Knowles ran our merch shop. And we're sorry, the scam is structural dad hat is completely sold out and it was designed by Brijae Morris. Extra special thanks to our besties and call colleagues including Sarah Blank, without whom I never would've met Ann and without whom I never would've met Amina. Josephine Mortirana who brought us into Stitcher with Eric Spegelman. Jordan Abel, who first suggested we might wanna do a live show and to everyone who attended one to our guests and all of you for listening, we'll see you on the internet.
Coming soon.
